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 Freedom or choose to not have?

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Torch & Sword



Number of posts : 9
Registration date : 2008-01-31

PostSubject: Freedom or choose to not have?   Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:13 pm

I have posted this in other forums. It is interesting to see some overwhelmingly positive responses and others hate mail, LOL. Anyway, I just wanted to get some responses to these.

Sorry this is so long, but it is worth the read:


Post One:

I know a missionary that in Mexico that if he is seen with a deck of cards or a pair of dice, his reputation will be shot and his ministry greatly hindered. This will result in thousands not being saved. The people he is reaching live in the jungles of Mexico and have never even heard of Jesus. So anyway, he doesn't feel there is anything wrong with a deck of cards or dice in board games etc....but he loves the people there enough to lay down his freedoms for the sake of winning souls.

I am not shooting this at anyone at all, but there are people I know in the area I live that would never give up there freedoms for the sake of winning some. I believe that is very selfish and sad. In the area I live, if I was to use profanity (including what the h_ll), drink, smoke, etc....I would lose my witness as a Christian. It is that simple. This would cause all the people I could win to the Lord to not be won, and them to end up in hell. Is it scriptural to care of others and their eternal state more than our own selfish desires? Of course,

1Corinthins 8:
1. Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.
2. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know;
3. but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
4. Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6. yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
7. However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8. But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
9. But take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11. For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12. And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13. Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble.

I think Christians need to quick being selfish and quit compromising. Many know some things they are doing aren't right, but they keep on. Come on man, people are watching and calling Christians hypocrites because of it. I want to live in a way that people will say, "maybe some Christians are hypocrites, but I know one who isn't."


Post Two:


Well, I guess that is the mentality of a lot of people. Me and others are continually witnessing in our areas on the streets and hear people say things like "I know Christians that go to church with hangovers, cheat on their wives, use profanity, get drunk, etc...If they are going to heaven, I sure am!"

So that is why I have a problem with the fakes. People aren't getting saved because of them! If people were really Christians, old things would pass away and all things would become new.

I don't agree in the least that all Christians are hypocrites and that we should ever justify sin. The doctrine that all Christians are hypocrites is a doctrine from the Church of Satan. The aposlte Paul says some things regarding a "brother" that is living in sin:

1Corinthians 5:
1. It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2. And you have become arrogant, and have not mourned instead, in order that the one who had done this deed might be removed from your midst.
3. For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4. In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5. I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7. Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8. Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9. I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10. I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world.
11. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler not even to eat with such a one.
12. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13. But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

There is a lot of strange teachings in America and have been for years. I believe this has resulted in the story of the Wheat and the Tares which I will post below this comment. A tare looks exactly like wheat. The only way to tell the difference is to wait until harvest time. The wheat will produce grain (or fruit symbolically) at the top, and therefore will bow over from the weight of it. I believe there are many calling themselves Christians in this nation, but are not. They may believe they are because they were told so, grew up in church, or said a little prayer one time to get someone off their case. God knows there hearts and will separate the wheat from the tares just as this prophetic parable shows.

There should be some fruit to see if someone is really born again. Matthew 3:8. "Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance;

Parable of Tares and Wheat
24. He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25. "But while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away.
26. "But when the wheat sprang up and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27. "And the slaves of the landowner came and said to him, `Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28. "And he said to them, `An enemy has done this!' And the slaves said to him, `Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29. "But he said, `No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root up the wheat with them.
30. `Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

I am not going to fight with people. through this forum. I am just sick of having such a hard time witnessing because of hypocrites calling themselves Christians living in unrepentant sin. I wish they would choose which god they are going to serve.

The below passage shows that Jesus has a problem with hypocrisy. The attitude that all Christians are hypocrites is one of the doctrines of the Church of Satan as I mentioned before. I don't think it belongs in the church of Jesus Christ.

Pharisaism Exposed

1. Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
2. saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
3. therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things, and do not do them.
4. "And they tie up heavy loads, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
5. "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries, and lengthen the tassels of their garments.
6. "And they love the place of honor at banquets, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7. and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called by men, Rabbi.
8. "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9. "And do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10. "And do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
11. "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12. "And whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Seven Woes
13. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14. ["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you shall receive greater condemnation.]
15. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, `Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated.'
17. "You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the temple that sanctified the gold?
18. "And, `Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.'
19. "You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar that sanctifies the offering?
20. "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it.
21. "And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it.
22. "And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
23. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
24. "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
26. "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28. "Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30. and say, `If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. "Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32. "Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33. "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?
34. "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35. that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.


It is very scriptural to "Examine Ourselves" and make sure that we are truly in the faith. 2 Corinthians 13: 5. "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you unless indeed you fail the test?"


Please don't put a reply unless you are going to actually read the whole post I made. I just want the world to see a difference in us that are called to be different. If you are not different than the world, why should I or others believe that you are a Christian? Is it just because you say so? I don't think that is going to work for most people out there.


If people get out on the streets and witness, I think most will start to see what is being talked about here.

Love Neon Cross. You guys have ministered to me since I was in my early teens!
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom or choose to not have?   Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:37 pm

Hey thanx for the post. This is kina the wrong thread for this, but not the wrong board. We stand against "easy believism" here. But it is important to see both sides. And really, the closer you are to the truth, the more you can appreciate that it's really not two sides but two views of the same truth.

We are totally free in Christ! It is awesome! We don't need to look over our shoulders and wonder who is watching or what the Lord will think. The law and all it's ordinances have been nail to the wood and crucified, sin is no longer a factor. Jesus paid it all.

But how did this happen to me? While it is absolutely true that we do nothing to merrit or add to nor can we ever merrit or add our salvation, there was some swallowing of pride, surrendering of our "dead" lives, and receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Not really "work", but certainly a change.

But is it magic? What does that look like? How can I tell if I'm really saved, if anybody is really saved, or if this is all just wishful thinking...kina Spiritual Amway, "one day I'll go Diamond and then I'll get my own room in the Jerusalem Inn..."?

Well...there ought to be some kind of evidence. The evidence doesn't save me. The evidence is merely evidence. It demonstrates that something has really happened. I acted like a Christian because my love for Christ and the working of the Holy Spirit within me motivates me to act like a Christian. And when I don't act like a Christian I find myself in conflict. I am convicted, even without words, without the wagging of fingers (or tongues), I am greaved within and want to come clean.
Litterally, I can't live with myself in such a condition.

The question that always strikes me when I hear all this talk of what we can "get away with" as Christians (maybe that's not the right way to put it?) is where is the love? It is the love that drew me to Christ and it is the love that sustains me. And while I'm far from perfect, my desire is not to head away from my savior to see what I can get away with, it is to please Him...to, as it is stated in Proverbs, remove my foot from evil.

Things that mark the "real" believer are things like humility, joy, gratitude, peace, wisdom, and love, which is selfless and caring.
It is a very small thing to surrender any carnal pleasure if it advances the Kingdom. The returns in joy alone for pleasing our Lord is more than equal to anything I've ever surrendered. There's no contest.

But here is the danger. I don't gain anything by pleasing the Lord...and let me just clarify this quickly. The love I feel, the joy, the peace, all of that is unmatched by any earthly pleasure, but I don't gain points. I don't become "more secure" in my salvation or elevated in my position as a believer. The merrit belongs to Jesus and He alone. After all, the only work that can ever please Him are works of faith, which actually turn out to be Jesus acting out through me.

We should all recognize that we owe a debt to those who bucked religion and were faithful to stand up for our liberties in Christ. Just becareful to also recognized that they were called to that purpose. They were called to liberate Christ's bride the church from religious evil and the tyranny of a law that could never be satisfide by human means.

And here is the acid test. Let love be your motivation. All things in love.
Why do you do what you do? You can ask yourself this question at anytime and ought to ask often. "Who benefits from this?", "Is it loving?"
And if you don't know what that means I'm sure you can guess where to look. Yep, 1st Corinthians 13: 4-7, repeat after me, Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Wink
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Torch & Sword



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PostSubject: Thanks   Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:38 pm

Thanks Dave for the reply. I agree so much with what you said in many ways. I think people take this type of balancing different based on how they have been taught the word. For example, we know God is a fair judge to all, including believers:

1Peter 4: 17. For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18. And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner?

I think when speaking of God as a judge, people have not seen him truly in this area the way he really is. His judgments are all in love. Even his judgments of Sodom and Gomorrah were done in love. But at the same time I don't believe he approves of the selfish, sinful, and compromising lives of some that are calling themselves Christians. I do believe that not everyone that calls themselves Christians are in fact born again. Some think they are solely based on going to church on Easter and Christmas. Church going doesn't save anyone, but only the cross saves. Some because they have been told so, or because their family is saved. Others because they said a little half-hearted prayer they didn't mean to get someone off their case. It is not God's will that anyone go to hell, but he will send those there that are not in right relationship with him through Jesus, and it is that simple. I know you know that. Isn't is love to help someone see that, so that they can be saved? Wouldn't it be a lack of love to let someone perish? So I am not taking the love aspect out. It is so scriptural to examine ourselves just to make sure we are really God's children.

2Corinthians 13: 5. Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you unless indeed you fail the test?
6. But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

I mainly wanted to give people somethings to think about maybe they haven't. Thanks for understanding and giving such a kind reply. It means a lot. I really am not disagreeing with you up to this point at all. Even in your initial posts. I just wanted to bring out some things to cause Christians to think. I really do love and appreciate Neon Cross. When I was growing up in my teen years, I was very suicidal. My life was so messed up, but God used Neon Cross and other bands to keep me going. I am eternally grateful. One day I will be able to thank you face to face. Blessings Dave,
T&S
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PostSubject: Re: Freedom or choose to not have?   Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:04 pm

It's a blessing to know that we ministered to you in those dark times...and as far as agreeing or not agreeing, that was never the question. I simply like to clarify. As of late I've seen a lot of imbalance on the web. People need to remember it is all of Christ, and none of us. But if it is Christ, then certainly it ought to look like Christ, aye? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Freedom or choose to not have?   Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:51 pm

Well said, and thanks for the conversation. You guys do stay in my prayers, and I appreciate what you do for the Lord. Blessings,
T&S
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